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NellieBelle

10930 Posts


Posted - Sep 24 2014 :  09:26:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That sounds like a daunting task but one needing done. I hope you are getting cooperation from Sure Shot Cattle.
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Ron

4666 Posts
Ronnie
Peever SD
USA

Posted - Sep 24 2014 :  10:55:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh my, this story gets sadder by the minute. Words can not express this. Emotions from sad to anger and everything in the middle.

With a moo moo here and a moo moo there, here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moo moo.
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kadebg1988

128 Posts


Posted - Sep 24 2014 :  12:15:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.minimilkcows.com/ambassador.htm
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maryjane

6764 Posts


Posted - Sep 25 2014 :  12:32:10 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Poor Daisy. She hasn't taken her eyes off the road that leads to where I'd housed her and Beaumont. She beckons everyone who walks by to help her find him. This is going on Day 3 now. I know she'll get over it but I wish she didn't have to go through this.


MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~
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NellieBelle

10930 Posts


Posted - Sep 25 2014 :  1:18:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's hard to watch. Poor girl. It's not the same, but when I separated Sienna from Nellie, Sienna cried and ran the fence, trying to get back with Nellie. I would have let her if it hadn't been for Pumpkin. They'd never been apart until Nellie had her calf. I had to give Sienna special attention for quite some time. She acted as if she were being left out and I didn't want her to feel that way. And when I finally let her back in with Nellie a week or two ago, Sienna literally kicked her heels up and she was so happy, licking Nellie and even allowing Pumpkin to smell and look her over. Cow feelings are endearing. All you can do is give Daisy your love.
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Ron

4666 Posts
Ronnie
Peever SD
USA

Posted - Sep 25 2014 :  1:40:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am not even there and am sick about it all. Can not even imagine what you guys are going through. Sad to mad and everything in between.

With a moo moo here and a moo moo there, here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moo moo.
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CloversMum

3473 Posts


Posted - Sep 25 2014 :  3:51:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is so sad...poor Daisy. I'm sure you're giving her lots of extra loves, but it doesn't make things right. Sad times for sure.

Loving life and family on our Idaho farm, Meadowlark Heritage Farm; 1 Jersey cow; 1 Guernsey cow; 1 Guernsey steer calf; Oberhasli & Guernsey goats, ducks and chickens
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maryjane

6764 Posts


Posted - Oct 06 2014 :  9:15:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
UPDATE: On Friday, before I left to pick Samson up in Montana, https://www.heritagejersey.org/chatroom/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=389, the WSU vets came to give my younger cattle their booster shots. They also delivered their medical write-up on Beaumont’s necropsy that was performed 9/23/14. Sara Haas had called WSU on 9/26/14 (Friday around 5pm) requesting a copy of Beaumont’s medical records (medical records require an owner’s release). I didn’t release them because they weren’t done yet. I sent an email to Haas Monday morning on 9/28/14 saying that when they were completed I would release them provided she disclose Ambassador’s medical records and why and when he was euthanized or current photos and medical records if he is alive.

I don’t intend to release the full report to Haas until she specifically answers publicly the questions I’ve asked about Ambassador. Fantastical conspiracy theories aside, it comes down to her being able to answer the questions I’ve asked. (I know that Beaumont’s mother’s dam is still alive and the semen used to produce her has a history of use.) Taking exception with everything from how I part my hair to what my motivations are is a way to avoid what all concerned parties should be concerned with. “The cause of this syndrome is unknown though hereditary and nutritional factors may play a role. Due to the specialized breeding for this Jersey bull, further investigation into the genetic links may be required.” Washington State Disease Diagnostic Laboratory Histopathology Report on Beaumont, dated 9/30/14.

As part of Beaumont’s necropsy, a sample of his liver was analyzed for macro or micro trace element excesses or deficiencies (to indicate possible nutritional factors). None were detected. It was also not a result of injury.

A 2014 paper from Universite de Montreal says, … “For a long time, it was thought that fast-growing animals fed a high-energy diet were more likely to develop osteochondrosis. The hypothesis was never confirmed and it is now thought that it might not be an important factor in the development of the disease. Being an intact male was also implicated. Nowadays, with high-value females, males are not as overrepresented as they were in the past. In pigs and horses, osteochondrosis has a heritable component. It was thought that the heritable component was at the level of the quality of the bone or cartilage. However, this theory does not explain why osteochondrosis is always diagnosed at the same location and rarely involved other articulations except for the contralateral. Therefore, the hereditable component seems to be more at the level of certain anatomic characteristics. In pigs, the incidence of osteochondrosis can be decreased or increased significantly by selecting the breeding stock according to joint shape and conformation.”

MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~
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Ron

4666 Posts
Ronnie
Peever SD
USA

Posted - Oct 07 2014 :  06:13:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Was your calf the only one you had/have that was/is a product of that line?

With a moo moo here and a moo moo there, here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moo moo.
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NellieBelle

10930 Posts


Posted - Oct 07 2014 :  06:24:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would think she would want to disclose all information she has on the lineage of Ambassodor, the dam and bull that produced him. To learn and prevent the cause of the osteochondrosis should be at the forefront of all that she does so there may never be a repeat of this if at all possible. Especially if it has a heritable component. Very interesting information and I hope Haas is forthcoming with the information.
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maryjane

6764 Posts


Posted - Oct 07 2014 :  07:07:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's looking like there might be a four-month-old heifer out there. Some reports say it follows male lineage which is why public disclosure and discourse is going to be so important going forward.

MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~
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Ron

4666 Posts
Ronnie
Peever SD
USA

Posted - Oct 07 2014 :  07:23:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It really pays to know where your animals come from.

With a moo moo here and a moo moo there, here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moo moo.
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CloversMum

3473 Posts


Posted - Oct 08 2014 :  10:44:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I hope the owner of the four-month old heifer can receive all this information...it would save future heartbreak for someone else.

Loving life and family on our Idaho farm, Meadowlark Heritage Farm; 1 Jersey cow; 1 Guernsey cow; 1 Guernsey steer calf; Oberhasli & Guernsey goats, ducks and chickens
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meander1

5 Posts
Nancy
Ceres VA

Posted - Oct 10 2014 :  07:00:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am the person who owns the 4 month old heifer, sired by Ambassador. She is alive and well so far. She is out of an AJCA (purebred) Jersey cow that was A1/A2, and I happened to get an A2/A2 heifer, which was my hope. She is also marked with white. She is MJHB registered and can be seen there by HB members.
I did ask Sara for Ambassadors current photo and height measurement after she made public statements regarding Ambassador but she has not answered any questions about him.
I am happy with my calf. Ambassador has a 0 percent inbreeding coefficient as does my calf, Meander's Snowflake. My calf is big and will be a standard most likely. A dairyman friend of mine whose family has raised Jerseys since 1929, knows the Lemvig line to be Danish imports and they are very big cows. Not necessarily taller, but wide and large framed.
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Ron

4666 Posts
Ronnie
Peever SD
USA

Posted - Oct 10 2014 :  07:33:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pictures please! Thank you also for the info!

With a moo moo here and a moo moo there, here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moo moo.
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maryjane

6764 Posts


Posted - Oct 10 2014 :  07:36:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Nancy,
Can you explain percent inbreeding coefficient and how one arrives at a percentage? I did speak with the owner of Daisy's dam for a good hour night before last. She is MH Bessie and has had two calves since he sold Daisy to Haas. She is still providing milk for his family. The sire for Daisy was Margarethe's Dairyman (AI semen). I can't find anyone who has used that semen (imported) who has seen osteochondrosis. Some of the medical literature available indicates that osteochondrosis shows up in male offspring. Whether or not that means females can be carriers hasn’t been addressed in the world of cattle. There is literature on that in the canine world but not cattle.

I’m taking all my bulls this morning to WSU for their biannual hoof trim and trich test, etc. I’ll check back here later today. Thank you for posting.


MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~
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CloversMum

3473 Posts


Posted - Oct 10 2014 :  09:16:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you for posting, Nancy, and sharing your information. Very glad to hear that your heifer is doing well! All of this is very interesting and should provide better genetic information and opportunities for learning for future breeding.

Loving life and family on our Idaho farm, Meadowlark Heritage Farm; 1 Jersey cow; 1 Guernsey cow; 1 Guernsey steer calf; Oberhasli & Guernsey goats, ducks and chickens
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meander1

5 Posts
Nancy
Ceres VA

Posted - Oct 10 2014 :  10:42:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mary Jane,
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meander1

5 Posts
Nancy
Ceres VA

Posted - Oct 10 2014 :  11:05:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Mary Jane,
I happen to have a pedigree and data base program that calculates inbreeding coefficient. The calculation is based on ancestry and as you know, to do a proper analysis, one needs far more than 3 generations of ancestry. However, what I do know about Ambassador is that his dam's Lemvig line is Danish, some of the semen and embryos imported. It's been very successful in the commercial Jersey dairy industry. It's unlikely that Charlotte is inbred due to the genome mapping the dairy industry uses for mating cows. But even if it is inbred, it is completely diluted by Ambassador's sire, Captain Morgan.
Morgan was probably bred by Riverview but his sire, Riverview Bobby was Ralph Martin's breeding in spite of the Riverview prefix. Morgan's dam was undocumented but assuming the worst, she is probably a Dexter or Dexter cross. I tend to assume all the Riverview dams were Dexter or Dexter crosses.
Riverview Bobby sired Riverview Gene, one of the most successful bulls out there with abundant, healthy, prolific offspring. I have a Gene daughter and you have several Gene influenced cows. His history is rather sound. My calf is out of an AJCA Jersey of Family Hill bloodlines, domestic and separate from Ambassador's dam. Beaumont's dam was sired by a standard Jersey from the Isle of Jersey. Here is a link for more info on Maigrethe's Dairyman offered by one of his owners actually on the Isle of Jersey. He is NOT a small bull.
http://hoperefugefarm.com/archives/554
And he is not related to the standard Jersey lines in Ambassador. The only common link you have in Beaumont's ancestry is through his dam and that is Riverview Gene and he repeats only once. With Gene having a remarkable history of sound progeny, I can't see, logically, where Beaumont is inbred but he is slightly more inbred than my heifer.

Osteochondrosis does exist in male and female animals. I have personal experience in degenerative joint disease in dogs. But osteochondrosis has so very many causes that hereditary factors are difficult to pin down, and even more difficult to prove. And I can't see enough of an incidence in inbreeding, in Ambassador or Beaumont that supports a hereditary reason. Until we know what happened to Ambassador, and why, we will be in the dark on this issue.

Here is Snowflake wearing her Oh So fashionable ear tags. I did not want her harassed by flies after her disbudding.

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Ron

4666 Posts
Ronnie
Peever SD
USA

Posted - Oct 10 2014 :  2:17:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What an outstanding looking animal!

With a moo moo here and a moo moo there, here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moo moo.
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maryjane

6764 Posts


Posted - Oct 12 2014 :  12:05:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the explanation, Nancy. If you’d care to share the name of your program, I should definitely run percentages on a couple of my cattle. Wouldn’t it be nice if it were standard practice when buying an animal to have access to what you’ve just described? I know on one of my girls (based on information I figured out after-the-fact), I have a good five years breeding her before I know reliably what she’s going to produce. She may just end up here in retirement. I’ve had my share of surprises. The cow I mention, now three years old, was purchased when she was around two years old (two separate owners by then) and was un-bred, supposedly. And I didn’t think to ask, “She isn’t the result of a mother bred to her son is she?” My goodness, the things people don’t tell you if you don’t ask. When I put her in with one of my bulls and eventually ran a pregnancy test on her, it was affirmative. To my surprise she dropped a calf (a bull) two months later. He’s A2A2 homozygous polled, BUT, I need a few years to see how her genetics play out through him. His sire (slated for the freezer) was from another line entirely, so there’s hope. But her udder isn’t so great and she didn’t take to mothering real well and I was unable to milk her, as in really milk her, long enough for us both to get comfortable (I did take the little guy to WSU for blood work soon after to make sure he got enough colostrum) but since then I’ve trained her and sweetened her up and bred her again. So I’m hopeful that she’ll be of use to me as a milk cow. If her bull calf (the surprise) gives me a few good cows with good udders, I’ll feel like he was a good surprise, if not, well then, he’ll probably end up retired here as well. I know there’s a market for homozygous polled A2A2, but there are others things that I think are more important.

Like my daughter says, “There’s always something good out of something bad.” This heartache with Beaumont has been a real eye-opener and a confirming lesson in disclosure, disclosure, disclosure. Recently I sold a bull. I gave the prospective buyer https://heritagejersey.org/chatroom/pop_printer_friendly.asp?TOPIC_ID=187 all the information I have on his genetic background, all his genetic test results, all his vet records, including minor things like hoof trims, even a photo album. When he was still interested, I took the bull to WSU for a breeding soundness exam. They deferred him because of his age (12 months) and the quality of his semen. Based on that report, I said I wanted to keep him here until he passed and was no long deferred. Even so, he still wanted to buy him at that point in time. So, I got the brand inspector out and had WSU test and approve him for travel. Currently, he has at least two of his cows pregnant that I know of and he’s happy with his purchase. Maybe someday soon I’ll be able to offer inbreeding coefficients also. Oh, and maybe hip scores? Here’s what the dog world does regarding hip dysplasia:

”Since the condition is to a large degree inherited, the hip scores of parents should be professionally checked before buying a pup, and the hip scores of dogs should be checked before relying upon them for breeding. There are several standardized systems for categorising dysplasia, set out by respective reputable bodies (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals/OFA, PennHIP, British Veterinary Association/BVA).”

What are the “so very many causes” you mention for osteochondrosis (that leads to hip dysplasia)? We’ve eliminated nutrition (liver biopsy) and injury. Beaumont was a normal, frolicking calf until five months of age. The histopathology report I received on him from the WSU Veterinary Teaching Hospital said, “Osteochondrosis has a multi-faceted etiology, with commonly cited causes including genetics, rapid growth, anatomic conformation, trauma, and dietary imbalances. Did the sire or any of his other progeny show similar clinical signs to Beaumont’s?”

That last sentence is the question I can’t get an answer to and the reason I emailed two breeders who had Ambassador on their websites (I gave them a link to this thread), http://www.minimilkcows.com/ambassador.htm and
http://www.texasminiaturejerseys.com/Bulls.html.

I heard back from the first breeder but not the second one. I think it’s a disservice to anyone buying semen not to stand up and say publicly, here’s what happened to me when I used that semen.

Do Snowflake’s ear tags keep the flies away? How much did she weigh when born? She sure does have a classic cute Jersey face. You must be pleased. Now, the long wait until she can give you milk.


MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~
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meander1

5 Posts
Nancy
Ceres VA

Posted - Oct 12 2014 :  2:50:39 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since you quoted a paragraph regarding dogs, and the use of OFA radiographs, Pennhip etc. for diagnosis, I think you are confusing two different medical issues. Hip dysplasia (displaced or incongruent fit of the hip joint) is a term for the genetic syndrome in dogs. The confusing part is that hip dysplasia is also a symptom. One of the symptoms of osteochondrosis. They are two separate medical conditions. One is a result of a genetic factor that interferes the normal development of the hip joint, the other is a result of interrupted blood flow to the cartilage at the bone ends and affects more than just hip. I believe your report diagnosed osteochondrosis with lesions found in other locations as well as the hip.
The precise cause of osteochondrosis is still unknown but it is known to be associated with a fast rate of growth. Factors that may be important are genetic, nutrition (including high calorie intake), and trauma.

The causes I listed are taken from this site which is the simplest that I have found regarding the condition.

http://www.provet.co.uk/petfacts/healthtips/osteochondrosis.htm

I think Ambassador was well used so there should be other calves out there. I may have another one coming next year, out of my Riverview Gene daughter, but I had to use two straws from separate bulls. I ran out of straws and wanted to be assured my cow was settled. She is pregnant but the calf will need DNA verification. My bet is that it's Ambassador's. Anyway, other calves will come to light when they are born and folks offer some for sale or put them into their herds for future milk cows or breeding bulls. It takes time. If there is a connection to Ambassador, it will come to light. While I agree that keeping your experience quiet may not help others, I have come to appreciate the necessity for having a statistical advantage, namely other incidences of a specific occurrence, before forming conclusions. I don't know how to address obtaining that information but I have thought that perhaps a confidential reporting format (requiring veterinary verifications) is one way to accumulate data?

At this point in time, I have no hesitation about using Ambassador. However A.I. gives us so much freedom to use different bulls, for different outcomes, that I never planned to use only one bull, ever. Which is one reason I don't keep my own bull.

Snowflake's ear tags really did work. She was disbudded too late (in my opinion) due to my vet not having the equipment needed. I finally had to order my own iron and get the vet back. She was 5 weeks by that time with the fly season well underway. I recently removed her ear tags. She is a little fuzzball now. I live up in the mountains and she is ready for winter. I'm not.
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txbikergirl

3191 Posts


Posted - Oct 12 2014 :  4:28:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just wanted to say how sad this is. My heart goes out to you and your herd.
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maryjane

6764 Posts


Posted - Oct 12 2014 :  6:17:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
txbikergirl, good to see you're getting closer to a decision (on another thread). One of my girls has a bit of Guernsey in her and that first bit of milk I put into the mastitis test cups every day is such a happy yellow. I'm hoping that by sharing what I'm going through, people like you won't have to go through it.

Nancy, you’re saying you have no hesitation using Ambassador because you have a statistical advantage, in other words, you’re saying osteochondrosis is a result of inbreeding and since you’re not worried about that, you’re not worried that what happened to Beaumont could happen to you or someone buying an animal from you? "And I can't see enough of an incidence in inbreeding, in Ambassador or Beaumont that supports a hereditary reason."

MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~
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maryjane

6764 Posts


Posted - Oct 12 2014 :  6:44:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nancy, the website you reference was last updated in 2013. My veterinarians gave me the latest research from 2014. Quoting again from the most recent available medical literature on Noninfectious Joint Disease in Cattle (2014): “For a long time, it was thought that fast-growing animals fed a high-energy diet were more likely to develop osteochondrosis. This hypothesis was never confirmed and it is now thought that it might not be an important factor in the development of the disease … osteochondrosis has an inheritable component … it was thought that the heritable component was at the level of the quality of the bone or cartilage. However, this theory does not explain why osteochondrosis is always diagnosed at the same location and rarely involves other articulations expect for the contralateral joint. Therefore, the hereditable component seems to be more at the level of certain anatomic characteristics.

Also, in Beaumont's case, “additional tissues throughout his body were examined and were considered "grossly normal.”


MaryJane Butters, author of Milk Cow Kitchen ~ striving for the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain ~
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